00;00;00;00 – 00;00;39;15

Cindy Holmes

Welcome. I’m Cindy Holmes, and this is Around the Table, a podcast where we bring forward conversations about shared meals, dialogue, spirituality and social justice. Around the table is a research project and a podcast. In this podcast series, we share our conversations with community leaders from across Turtle Island who have organized intentional dinner dialogue to support community well-being and advance social justice, anti-racism and decolonization.

00;00;39;17 – 00;00;53;10

Cindy Holmes

Today’s episode is being recorded on the Unceded ancestral and traditional territories of the lək̓^wəŋən and WSÁNEĆ Peoples.

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Cindy Holmes

In this week’s episode of Around the Table, my colleague Fionna Chong and I are in conversation with Nina Fernando from Shoulder to Shoulder. Shoulder to Shoulder is a multi-faith coalition organized to address anti-Muslim hatred, discrimination and violence in the United States. They organize the United States of Love Over Hate, a Ramadan Supper series campaign, bringing Muslim and non-Muslim people together to share an iftar meal, the breaking of the fast, which is one of the most significant points of the day during Ramadan. During the COVID 19 pandemic, they facilitated the Welcome to My Table initiative, where they paired households to virtually connect and share an iftar meal.

00;01;39;09 – 00;02;12;24

Cindy Holmes

Nina M. Fernando serves as executive director of the Shoulder to Shoulder Campaign, a multi-faith coalition of religious denominations and faith based organizations committed to countering and preventing anti-Muslim discrimination and violence in the United States by building a society where all are treated with dignity and respect. Nina holds an M.A. in Inter-religious and Cultural Studies from Claremont School of Theology and a B.A. in Social Change through Music and Religious Studies from the Johnson Center for Integrative Studies at the University of Redlands.

00;02;12;27 – 00;02;37;07

Cindy Holmes

She was named a OneBeat Fellow in 2018, one of 21 faith leaders to watch in 2021 by the Center for American Progress, is an Institute for Social Policy and Understanding educator, and a member of the Religion and Society Program at the Aspen Institute’s Racial Justice and Religion Collective. Nina lives with her family in Southern California. Welcome, Nina.

00;02;37;07 – 00;02;57;10

Cindy Holmes

It’s so great to see you and be with you today. Thanks for speaking with us. Today, I’m here with my colleague, Fionna. Fionna Chong is one of the community partners in our project, and Fionna and I are really grateful to be with you in conversation and to hear more about the inspiring work that you’ve been doing at Shoulder to Shoulder.

00;02;57;13 – 00;03;05;19

Cindy Holmes

I wanted to know if you could start by just introducing yourself and letting us know where you’re located and anything else you’d like to share with us.

00;03;05;21 – 00;03;37;05

Nina Fernando

Well, I’m Nina Fernando, and I’m calling in from Southern California today, and I serve as the executive director of the Shoulder to Shoulder campaign. And Shoulder to Shoulder, we’re a national multi-faith coalition, religious denominations and faith-based organizations in the United States who are committed to addressing anti-Muslim discrimination. Our partners work on a variety of issues but they have come together around this, seeing that it’s not just a Muslim issue, but one that impacts us all.

00;03;37;08 – 00;03;55;22

Nina Fernando

And we know well that anti-Muslim discrimination doesn’t just impact Muslims, it also impacts those who are perceived to be. And really, when we think of the key themes of solidarity, really all of us. So that’s just a bit of who we are. And I’m really grateful to be in conversation with you today.

00;03;55;24 – 00;04;17;14

Cindy Holmes

Thank you. We’re really inspired by the work you’ve been doing, and I’ve learned a lot already just from your website and from conversations we’ve had together and looking forward to our conversation today. Wondering if you could share about a time when you shared food with others around the table and you felt a sense of belonging.

00;04;17;16 – 00;04;58;18

Nina Fernando

Yeah, I feel like me personally, food is just the way to my heart and I love eating. So I think just the act of coming together, sitting at a table is for me – I get a sense of belonging. I want to know about what I’m eating and what I’m tasting and the stories behind recipes. And yeah, so I think really just the act of getting together is in and of itself profound and intimate and creating a space in which we can kind of put down our everyday walls or presentations and just enjoy being together and eating because eating is fun.

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Cindy Holmes

It is.

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Fionna Chong

That’s wonderful. And on that topic of sort of breaking down walls and creating the space and coming together, I was looking at the website and there was a Ramadan campaign in 2019. It’s actually a yearly campaign, right? From what I understand. But there was a 2019 tour that went to the five cities for iftars and then the dialogues that you were part of.

00;05;22;09 – 00;05;29;22          

Fionna Chong

Can you just share a little bit about how and why did it start and its focus and its goals just for that particular campaign?

00;05;29;24 – 00;05;59;06

Nina Fernando

Sure. And I can kind of step back and just talk about our run back campaign as a whole. So Shoulder to Shoulder for the past few years have been doing what we call a nationwide listing of interfaith iftars. We call it the United States of Love Over Hate. And really what it is, is simply trying to map opportunities for people to come together during Ramadan across difference and share a meal and iftars are the meal that breaks the fast for many Muslims who observe Ramadan.

00;05;59;08 – 00;06;23;05

Nina Fernando

And we thought at Shoulder to Shoulder, that this was a wonderful opportunity. And so we at Shoulder to Shoulder don’t organize these dinners, but we capture them. And many of our partners, many of our friends and many folks that we don’t know yet organize these kinds of gatherings. They can be intimate, they can be more public. Some are taking place in homes, some are taking place in convention centers.

00;06;23;05 – 00;06;51;15

Nina Fernando

And really, it’s just a wonderful opportunity to share a meal and get to know your Muslim neighbors. And for us as we work to address anti-Muslim discrimination, this is one step that we see along the journey of working together. So in 2019, we decided to visit some of these iftars in the American Southeast. So we worked with some local partners in those cities and went on a road trip essentially with our staff.

00;06;51;15 – 00;07;00;04

Nina Fernando

And it actually the idea came about as almost like a joke. We were at a staff meeting and said, let’s go on a road trip in Ramadan. And people loved it.

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Cindy Holmes

I love it.

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Nina Fernando

It was fun. And so some of these ideas were already in the works and had already been a tradition. You know, I’m thinking about in Tennessee what they call the Music City iftar. And I worked with the city to put this together at the convention center there, but then also some smaller iftars or community led iftars, some that were coming together because of the trip.

00;07;24;15 – 00;07;54;28

Nina Fernando

And we were really excited just to tell stories and show the diversity of the American Muslim community. I think people oftentimes have a perception that Muslims come from one or a few ethnic backgrounds, but just here in the United States, incredibly diverse. So it was just a great opportunity to capture stories. And we had a great time and we made a mini documentary and a series of videos on topics and themes with discussion guides for people to check out and explore in Ramadan and beyond.

00;07;55;01 – 00;08;06;03

Fionna Chong

That’s fantastic. I love how there was this story booth set up as well. And then you got you know, people came and they were able to share their stories. That was such a different way of capturing that.

00;08;06;03 – 00;08;20;04

Nina Fernando

I want to give a shout out, though, to a religious institute at Chicago Theological Seminary, because they did a lot of that work with the story booth set up, and it was great to partner with them and they were in the van with us.

00;08;20;06 – 00;08;29;20

Cindy Holmes

That’s so great. I love watching the mini documentary and learned a lot, watched it with my family and I’ve shared it with others since.

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Nina Fernando

Oh that’s so awesome. I’m so glad to hear that.

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Fionna Chong

Fantastic. You touched a little bit on the organizations of the iftars and how different communities were organizing them, and then Shoulder to Shoulder came in and visited for this particular documentary. But in general, how do the different organizations work within their communities in terms of setting up the spaces? I imagine each is different from the documentary watching it.

00;08;56;02 – 00;09;09;18

Fionna Chong

Certainly each is different, but can you talk a little bit about the sort of dialogue component of that? I’m just trying to get a sense of Shoulder to Shoulder’s relationship with the organizations themselves, that way.

00;09;09;21 – 00;09;43;02

Nina Fernando

Yeah, well, I mean, our internal network, I’ll say, are 36 national denominations and faith based organizations. And then over 70 local interfaith and community organizations and congregations around the country who are in some way working on this issue, to address anti-Muslim discrimination. With this Ramadan campaign, we kind of share the invitation far and wide within our network and beyond and say, you know, with a note, are you hosting an interfaith iftar or are you considering hosting?

00;09;43;02 – 00;10;05;22

Nina Fernando

Would you like to host and trying to map what’s already happening and encourage what isn’t yet happening. And so at the iftars itself, some of them are taking place in mosques and they’re taking the opportunity to educate folks in the community with Islam 101, or get to know our community, come visit and we’ll go on a tour of our masjid.

00;10;05;22 – 00;10;38;03

Nina Fernando

You know, that kind of approach. There are some that are taking place in homes and just have really built in intentional conversation. And we put together at Shoulder to Shoulder in partnership with an organization called The People’s Supper, a guidebook to help people set them up, if they’d like, in their homes, but also creating more intimate conversations even when they’re public or bigger events and helping people have prompts and how to set the space and set the tone for the evening.

00;10;38;05 – 00;11;07;13

Nina Fernando

And people kind of take that and make it their own. And we do our best to capture stories. In 2020 as everything shut down for the pandemic, we pivoted our campaign and created what we called a Welcome to My Table initiative. We had people sign up and got a sense of their household and then intentionally paired households with one another so that they could share a meal or even just connect during Ramadan before and after iftar.

00;11;07;15 – 00;11;36;19

Nina Fernando

And so that was really a fun project to capture stories. And if there was a household with teenagers, try to pair it with another household with teenagers or what have you. Roommates in their twenties, interfaith couples, it was really fun to see how people were connecting and capture stories. So really, it’s so different. In 2019 that year, we were able to capture over 530 iftars in 38 states and I think even in Canada as well.

00;11;36;19 – 00;11;51;17

Nina Fernando

So we kind of expanded it to whoever signed up in North America. Yeah, they look different. They really look different. And what we’re trying to do is capture what’s already happening and prompt and promote folks to consider doing it themselves as they haven’t yet.

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Fionna Chong

Fantastic. So just talk about Welcome to my Table as well. And then the campaigns before, which were more face to face and I believe this year they’re going back face to face as well. Can you talk generally about how the iftars, the sharing of the stories and so forth, how have you noticed they’ve affected people individually and then within the broader community?

00;12;12;09 – 00;12;19;00

Fionna Chong

Any particular examples that you want to bring up? For example, why do people come? What do they leave with?

00;12;19;03 – 00;12;42;21

Nina Fernando

I think it really depends. And from the stories that we’ve heard, some people are curious and they may or may not be connected to the organization or individual who’s hosting, but they found out about it through the listing or they found out about it through, you know, seeing a flier in their local community, something like that. And it’s a chance to get to know people.

00;12;42;21 – 00;13;04;07

Nina Fernando

And I think, as I said, for myself, food is a place where people can connect. I’m sure you know very well doing this project, how that works for many people, many different contexts. And one of our partners in Washington state, Pastor Terry Kylo, he always says the power of the potluck, the power of bringing people together. It’s just very profound.

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Nina Fernando

It’s so simple, but it’s also so profound. And, you know, we at Shoulder to Shoulder, we’re mission focused in the work of addressing anti-Muslim discrimination. And do we believe that sharing a meal is going to eradicate the problem? Not necessarily, no. But it’s one step along the way. It’s one step in building that strong infrastructure that’s needed in order to be effective and to make change.

00;13;29;26 – 00;14;03;25

Nina Fernando

And sharing an iftar meal with someone in your community is building a stronger, bigger community. Oftentimes with this issue, there are really strong us versus them narratives that are being painted. Who are we and who are they? And just kind of putting them in another space and category. And we think that this effort, Dinner Dialogues, this particular effort with the Ramadan campaign, is creating a new sense of we in that context, a broader sense of us.

00;14;03;27 – 00;14;13;22

Nina Fernando

And we think that’s profound. And it’s one step, a long series of steps in order to making change because we need a place to start, essentially.

00;14;13;24 – 00;14;33;24

Fionna Chong

Yeah, it’s an opening of the door, so to speak, and then you can fight, right? Yeah. You touched upon it as well, the coming together and the sharing meal. So in my experience, the coming together to share a meal, kind of, I don’t know if it’s the right phrase for it, but it makes everybody on the same level. It’s very equal when we come together.

00;14;33;26 – 00;14;55;02

Fionna Chong

So could you talk a little bit more about how in your view and the organizations across the board, how does the act of sharing a meal together, shape or influence the dialogues? You had talked about prompts as well. Would you be able to talk a little bit more about that in terms of how it shapes or influences the dialogue, the art of coming together?

00;14;55;05 – 00;15;37;03

Nina Fernando

Sure. I feel like there’s so many layers, the setting and getting to know if it’s someone’s home at this masjid, if it’s even a synagogue or a church or a community center. Thinking about the setting intentionally and who is offering the space as host and who is creating a sense of hospitality. And it being an iftar itself and Muslims are the central figure, oftentimes in interfaith spaces, particularly in the United States, the table tends to be heavily set by Christians, and this is just an opportunity to flip that, but then also give agency to interfaith partners to play a role and an integral role as well.

00;15;37;05 – 00;16;05;19

Nina Fernando

And folks of faith backgrounds are with folks that are not connected to a faith tradition. All are welcome in that space. And another layer is food. Who’s creating the meal, who’s cooking, who’s catering? What’s the story there? Is this a meal that is often shared? Is this like a fusion of different cultures and traditions? What are we eating and what are the stories behind the foods, conversation and setting the space?

00;16;05;22 – 00;16;36;04

Nina Fernando

That’s another layer. What’s the goal of the gathering? Is the goal to educate neighbors about this particular Muslim community here and their particular traditions and cultural backgrounds. Is it about sharing, about belonging and creating a space for people to be vulnerable and say, like, what are some moments in my life? These are some props from our guidebook, what are some moments in my life where I didn’t feel like I belonged or I felt like I was made to feel like I didn’t belong.

00;16;36;06 – 00;17;14;29

Nina Fernando

And sharing those stories that are more intimate and vulnerable. What about stories where we did feel like we belong? We felt fully seen? How do we create more opportunities like that? So really drawing from some intentional conversations and it really depends on each setting and theme. Sometimes it’s also we saw, for example, in Welcome to My Table, there was an opportunity for the kids of a family to reflect on Ramadan and what Ramadan meant to them and share that with the other household, which I think it’s so beautiful to share that from their perspective and get to teach and take on that role in a way that people with curiosity that they may not

00;17;14;29 – 00;17;24;17

Nina Fernando

get to do in other spaces. You know, I think these are some of the layers that are filled with stories essentially for folks to share.

00;17;24;19 – 00;17;35;09

Fionna Chong

That’s beautiful, how the setting, the hospitality, they all influence what or who gets centered. And then from there, things take a shape as well. Thank you, Nina.

00;17;35;12 – 00;17;59;27

Cindy Holmes

It is so beautiful to hear about the children and the intergenerational sharing that’s made possible through these gatherings, too, that sometimes we forget about the children or the children are forgotten in the importance of the dialogue and the children are impacted and the children have a lot to say. So it’s beautiful to hear about that as an integral part of some of the dialogues that are happening.

00;17;59;29 – 00;18;34;16

Nina Fernando

Also, like something that’s coming to mind. You know, what makes an iftar and an interfaith iftar in particular different than another dinner dialogue is the spiritual element, the religious element, the timing, for example. And when an event begins and noting when sunset is taking place so that prayer can happen so that the fast can be broken and the little traditions like breaking the fast with a date, these kinds of unique elements that are involved in an iftar meal that I think are notable.

00;18;34;16 – 00;19;02;25

Nina Fernando

And when we’re bringing in a faith tradition, you know, spirituality into the space, it also shifts a little bit about the tone of the event and creates an opportunity for deeper reflection. For example, many traditions have fasting and getting to share on that. You know, many traditions kind of have these rituals around a certain time and calendar. So just naming those pieces I think are really beautiful too.

00;19;02;28 – 00;19;38;00

Cindy Holmes

When I looked at the interfaith iftar guide that you created, I was so inspired and I just felt supported, like I could go forward and be involved in helping to organize and host or be a part of organizing with Muslim community members to make this happen. And the guide itself breaks down barriers I think, in terms of the way it educates and the information it shares about the things to consider if you’re going to get involved in organizing.

00;19;38;02 – 00;20;16;19

Cindy Holmes

And it offers so much. So when we share the interview, we’ll have a link so that people can find out about how to find that guide. It’s really great. I was thinking about this piece about dialogue and across faiths and across differences and across communities, and one of the questions we’re interested in is how power inequities shape those dialogues and what are the different ways that power relations influence the dialogue at the table, as well as how do we address these when we’re gathering, how do we manage and remove power imbalances?

00;20;16;21 – 00;20;30;20

Cindy Holmes

So I wondered whether you could speak at all about this question of power and inequities and the dialogue. And what you’ve seen in the interfaith iftars or your thoughts on that?

00;20;30;22 – 00;20;44;00

Nina Fernando

Yeah, I think that’s a deep question. You know, I think there are a few things. I mean, one, some of what I shared earlier about how oftentimes in interfaith settings the table is set by Christians here in the U.S..

00;20;44;00 – 00;20;44;21

Cindy Holmes

Right.

00;20;44;24 – 00;21;08;24

Nina Fernando

And this is an opportunity for Muslims to set the table and really set the agenda, really, which is a powerful act in and of itself. There’s also these opportunities for partnerships that weren’t there before. And I’m thinking about some of the iftars where larger community gatherings where the mayor might come and visit, folks from the city are involved in, engaged in and promoting or even funding.

00;21;09;01 – 00;21;44;06

Nina Fernando

And that’s a really powerful piece to where there’s a recognition from, you know, community leaders, elected leaders to say these communities are Muslim communities are a part of our broader American society and really affirming that in this current context, you know, we’re based here in the United States. It’s very tense in many ways as it relates to the issues we’re facing with Christian nationalism and white supremacy and these kinds of dynamics that I know Canada and even around the world are facing in different ways.

00;21;44;09 – 00;21;44;29

Cindy Holmes

Yes.

00;21;45;01 – 00;22;24;28

Nina Fernando

And so I think that’s a powerful act to have our elected leaders, for example, affirming and offering greetings during Ramadan, supporting these iftar gatherings, for example. Another way, I think with power in the space itself, you know, we all have to eat no matter our stature, no matter our political views, religious backgrounds, we all eat. And I’m sure this is a theme that has emerged in your research, but it’s just a very powerful, profound daily act of eating that we all have to do in order to survive and be in community together.

00;22;24;28 – 00;22;38;27

Nina Fernando

And it’s kind of stepping back and being intentional about it makes a difference. So I think that also is an element here in these iftars. These are some of the pieces that are coming to mind right now, but I’m sure -.

00;22;39;00 – 00;23;01;28

Cindy Holmes

Thank you. Yeah, for sure. I think all of the things you’ve shared are really so significant. I can see in the work that you’ve been doing. And when I read your guides, I see how much thought and intention the organization has put towards these questions of how to ensure that the gathering happens in a good way and that people don’t experience harm and that it is meaningful.

00;23;01;28 – 00;23;25;24

Cindy Holmes

And I’m wondering what are some of the strategies that you’ve seen for dealing with some of the challenges or conflicts that might arise? I noticed, for example, in the guidebook there’s a discussion about some ground rules or some general suggestions on how people could have the dialogue or be in the gathering together.

00;23;25;26 – 00;23;51;11

Nina Fernando

When you mentioned challenges, I’m thinking of a particular instance of an iftar that I was able to attend, an interfaith iftar and there was a notable speaker who came and it was really incredible to have that be a part of the iftar. But it also, the timing went in such a way that the speaker arrived late and when it was time to break fast, the speaker was still in conversation.

00;23;51;13 – 00;24;15;26

Nina Fernando

And so the program was still happening rather than there being a break for prayer and for breaking fast and eating, as we know, many Muslims are fasting all day, no water, no food during the day. And so eating and that time, it’s so, so important. And this particular gathering, you could see that folks in the room were moving a little bit and wanting to go pray, wanting to eat.

00;24;15;26 – 00;24;41;22

Nina Fernando

And this notable speaker and the timing and everything just went in such a way. And for me watching and I know many, just uncomfortable, you know, in the sense like, got to wrap it up. We got a pause. Folks are so hungry. And what I saw that was really beautiful was the co-host and after the program ended and folks got to pray, folks got their food, there was an apology and a naming.

00;24;41;25 – 00;25;01;18

Nina Fernando

We made a really big mistake. And it was really important that this notable speaker was here just as much as we recognize that we could have done better, we could have figured out a way to pause the program, whether or not the speaker would leave or what have you, and basically an owning of the mistake. I really think that that was profound.

00;25;01;22 – 00;25;36;02

Nina Fernando

And what if we in our different settings, in our different spaces named when we made mistakes, it’s okay. It’s part of life to make mistakes and just naming it and moving forward and learning from it. And I think it’s also what’s so key about the many different elements that are involved in an interfaith iftar and who is hosting and their experience hosting and as a faith ally or as someone of another background who’s taking the role of host, who’s not paying attention to these dynamics.

00;25;36;04 – 00;25;55;27

Nina Fernando

It’s a learning opportunity and we’re talking about power. It’s another opportunity to kind of step aside and make space for Muslims to lead on this. And so that’s just one example of a challenge and kind of how the space that was set was creating an opportunity to own that mistake and learn from it.

00;25;55;29 – 00;26;30;01

Cindy Holmes

It’s a great example and it just really highlights how important humility and accountability are in allyship and in solidarity work and I think just ongoing learning. And that if we can even deepen our skills and our ability to practice apology in a good way that is meaningful and that leads to reflection and accountability in our communities, it’s a step, it’s an important step in terms of addressing the power relations and creating healing.

Nina Fernando

Totally.

00;26;30;03 – 00;26;51;14

Cindy Holmes

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that example. I’m wondering about, like we’re talking about some of the power relations and I’m also thinking about the ways people have been changed and how it’s affected people. Can you think of any examples or maybe about how people have been changed or the impact it’s had?

00;26;51;16 – 00;27;17;09

Nina Fernando

Gosh, I see faces, of conversations that I’ve had with people, and some of the examples that I heard was just like a surprise of, oh, this is great and I feel really comfortable and welcome here. This is my first time in a mosque. I had no idea. It’s very similar to, for example, my church, of course, with some differences too.

00;27;17;09 – 00;27;49;19

Nina Fernando

And this is really interesting and I always thought that I wouldn’t be able to be welcomed here in this way, and I feel really welcomed. It’s funny how you know, specifically it’s not funny really, but it’s the way that the media, for example, will convey and tell stories about a community in a really problematic way and how when we are with each other face to face, humanizing each other, it’s just perhaps surprising for folks, even though it shouldn’t be.

00;27;49;22 – 00;27;53;25

Nina Fernando

This is just something that’s coming to mind right now.

00;27;53;28 – 00;27;59;22

Cindy Holmes

Thank you. Yeah. Fionna, did you have anything else to ask around that?

00;27;59;25 – 00;28;19;28

Fionna Chong

No, I was reflecting on what you were saying, Nina, about you said it much more eloquently than I am right now, focusing on the Muslims setting the table and it just reflecting back upon my childhood, where I grew up, in a country where there’s the daily call to prayers, like, you know, broadcasts of at the mosques and so forth.

00;28;20;01 – 00;28;40;21

Fionna Chong

And as a non-Muslim myself, how I wish I had paid more attention to that as a child. So I’m learning a lot from this conversation and just thinking about the power dynamics in our society and the fabric of having, you know, multiple faith and multiple cultures all living in the same space. So thank you for sharing that.

00;28;40;23 – 00;29;08;13

Nina Fernando

Yeah, you naming that memory reminds me of some of the stories my mother used to tell growing up in Sri Lanka and having folks in her friend’s circle of different traditions. And the best part of these kinds of Ramadan, for example, or a puja for the Buddhist tradition, you know, all these different religious holidays, we get to share each other’s foods and there’s special foods that are being brought and going to each other’s houses and sharing meals.

00;29;08;13 – 00;29;10;21

Nina Fernando

And she talks about that really fondly.

00;29;10;28 – 00;29;15;03

Fionna Chong

The turmeric rice.

00;29;15;13 – 00;29;16;13

Nina Fernando

So good.

00;29;16;15 – 00;29;51;03

Cindy Holmes

Love it. I wish we could be eating together right now. Well, I’m kind of going to go back to what we were talking about around, sort of in relation to the power question and power imbalances or inequities. And I mean, you’ve named so many different things that make gathering meaningful. And I’m wondering if there’s anything else you would want to say about what you have found helps folks to have a meaningful dialogue or feel comfortable enough or safe enough to come together across these differences.

00;29;51;03 – 00;30;15;09

Cindy Holmes

Given as you’ve spoken about, you know, the realities of racism and white supremacy and what’s happening, what are some of the things that make people feel that they can come together and that they will be safe? Are there any other conditions that folks should be thinking about in terms of what makes a space feel safe enough for people or what else helps?

00;30;15;12 – 00;30;37;03

Nina Fernando

Sure. I’ll just respond with the images that were coming to mind. One is I’m thinking of an iftar that we got to be a part of and was organized by a partner organization that took place at the capital, and the backdrop was the Supreme Court. We were able to get a permit. We had a table set up, we had food, people were eating on the steps.

00;30;37;03 – 00;31;07;20

Nina Fernando

There was this beautiful picture of the Muslims there praying with the backdrop of the capitol, of the Supreme Court. And it was just a really, really powerful image and what that represents in our country, let alone in that small gathering of folks in the D.C. area coming together and sharing a meal. And that, I think, hits on some of the themes that we were talking about when it comes to power, when it comes to how profound this act can be.

00;31;07;23 – 00;31;34;02

Nina Fernando

I’m thinking about another image of Muslims praying in the middle of a park, in the middle of the city, in Atlanta, Georgia, and it’s sunset and on the grass itself, the grass that we all walk on and creating a sacred space there in the middle of the city. And how powerful that is and breaking fast and having a delicious meal in the community center there in that park.

00;31;34;05 – 00;32;01;25

Nina Fernando

There’s so many moments like that, the profundity of praying and prayer and the embodied experience of prayer and hearing stories of faith allies, folks of other backgrounds learning about that and maybe even taking the opportunity to pray themselves or to sit in the back and move their body in that way. And how beautiful that is, how profound that is.

00;32;01;29 – 00;32;23;12

Nina Fernando

And so I think these are all like images that are coming to mind that make this particular brand of dinner dialogue, that these interfaith iftars so, so profound, so beautiful and meaningful. Yeah, this is just a few stories that are coming to mind.

00;32;23;15 – 00;33;04;02

Cindy Holmes

These are beautiful images and stories. And what I’m so struck by is a claiming of space and the way in which it’s a transforming of space and power relations, to me, when I hear you speak about these examples and how significant that is as a part of what’s happening with the interfaith iftars is, as you’ve spoken about, who is setting the table that Muslims are leading, and that also in these different spaces where you talked about the narratives of us and them that are so powerful right now and have been across different spaces and different times.

00;33;04;02 – 00;33;36;26

Cindy Holmes

But these acts, these images and these stories are quite significant and profound for changing those narratives in the spaces of the capital in the park. So it’s beautiful to hear those stories, to see the courage and beauty in the lived experience of people’s faith also. And then, as you say, people of different faiths participating in meaningful ways with Muslims through prayer in these spaces is also quite profound.

00;33;36;29 – 00;33;39;04

Nina Fernando

I have two more that came to mind.That’s helpful to share.

00;33;39;05 – 00;33;41;15

Cindy Holmes

That’s great. Yeah, great.

00;33;41;17 – 00;34;10;04

Nina Fernando

You know, I’m thinking about a group in New York City, the Muslim Jewish Solidarity Committee. They host an annual iftar in a synagogue and a Seder in a mosque. And how beautiful that is, you know I don’t have to say much on it. And it’s, you know, an opportunity. The hosting piece is also an opportunity for learning and an opportunity to give in a way to one another’s communities.

00;34;10;06 – 00;34;41;29

Nina Fernando

The other piece I wanted to mention, when it relates to power and particularly as it relates to iftars, oftentimes in these spaces, folks are reflecting on fasting and that tradition of fasting. And what I hear so many times from our Muslim partners and friends hearing how fasting reminds them of how so many are going without food and with access to food and how so many are hungry in our country, let alone in our world.

00;34;42;01 – 00;35;11;26

Nina Fernando

And that’s another space in which people are reflecting on privilege and power and accessibility and resources and adding all these other layers of what we are engaged in, in our different settings economic justice, climate change, racism and racial justice, food deserts, you know, all kinds of pieces that get uplifted in this time when we’re reflecting on these themes.

00;35;11;28 – 00;35;18;20

Nina Fernando

So that’s another element, I think, that, that gets brought up often.

00;35;18;23 – 00;36;04;17

Cindy Holmes

So many pieces here that are brought forward and this potential for transformation on so many levels because of these connections you’ve been talking about, I see. You’re talking about how profound it is, the act of eating together, bringing people together through that sort of shared humanity, of sharing the meal. And we’ve been hearing that there’s a theme across many of the dinner dialogues that this act of sharing a meal is also sacred, that it becomes a sacred space, and that it also becomes a space or a site of healing for people and even for folks where it may not be that they have a connection to a religion or a faith tradition.

00;36;04;17 – 00;36;29;25

Cindy Holmes

And so if there’s anything that you would want to share, you know, you’ve certainly spoken about faith and spirituality in the work of the Interfaith iftars. I’m wondering if there’s anything else you’d like to say about sharing a meal in terms of spirituality per se. Is there anything else that you’d like to add? I think you’ve already spoken about this, but I just want to give you a chance to say any thoughts?

00;36;30;01 – 00;37;11;23

Nina Fernando

Yes, I welcome all the chances. Prayer, I think was mentioned before, but prayer as a component to these settings, whether that be when maghrib prayer, the evening prayer to break the fast or prayers before a meal, prayers to set the tone of a space and an event and I think for me, prayer and getting to witness prayer and take part in prayer, depending on who is praying, is just a chance to learn, is a chance to see and experience how folks are connecting with the sacred, however they define that.

00;37;11;29 – 00;37;30;05

Nina Fernando

And so that’s an element that is always a part of an iftar. As opposed to, say, another kind of dinner dialogue that I think is really beautiful and looks a little different depending on the space and place and who is hosting essentially.

00;37;30;07 – 00;38;02;20

Cindy Holmes

Right. For sure. All these different contexts and I think that really comes through that it’s not just one experience, but the spirituality runs through all of these different examples that you’ve shared and these different sites. I’m wondering if there’s anything else you want to say about the connections between spirituality or faith and social justice. It’s come through in a number of things you’ve spoken about around food justice, around the environment and around white supremacy and racism.

00;38;02;22 – 00;38;12;00

Cindy Holmes

Is there anything else about the connection between spirituality and social justice in relation to the interfaith iftars or Shoulder to Shoulder that you want to say?

00;38;12;03 – 00;38;43;21

Nina Fernando

I mean, I can speak for myself as well to name that. To me, what makes that intersection so profound? The intersection of faith, spirituality, sacred and social justice is that the primary motivator is what we imagine the world to be. Guided by our morals, our values, our faith traditions, sacred text, examples of faith figures, our ancestors, you name it, that is that motivator.

00;38;43;24 – 00;39;16;24

Nina Fernando

That is what brings us together in community. That’s what compels us to act versus oftentimes in some of the social justice settings that we’re in and community organizing models, self-interest gets really brought into the space. What’s in it for me and how does this impact me in my community? And let’s move from that space. I think what makes that intersection of faith and justice so profound is we’re motivated by our vision for community, our vision for society.

00;39;16;27 – 00;39;56;26

Nina Fernando

And that looks different depending on the traditions we come from. But yet there are so many connecting points and places in which we can overlap that vision. Just different language, perhaps, but with Shoulder to Shoulder’s work, we often encourage people to find those values that connect across traditions like human dignity. Saying it sounds, I think, without reflecting on it, it’s just a word when you really, really put human dignity at the center of what you do, how would you act in different spaces, how are our policies reflecting that or not reflecting that?

00;39;56;29 – 00;40;19;22

Nina Fernando

How are the ways that we interact or talk about each other in different settings, how is it impacted? So that is, I think what is so key, I think, to what we do at Shoulder to Shoulder, to what compels me, to what makes an iftar or an interfaith iftar so beautiful.

00;40;19;25 – 00;40;23;01

Cindy Holmes

Thank you. Nina. Fionna do you want to go next?

00;40;23;03 – 00;40;59;28

Fionna Chong

Yeah, we’re recording right now during Ramadan and it is lining up with the holy days and traditions right, that faiths are happening right now. And I was just really curious to talk about spirituality in intersection. For this year, and I know this won’t happen again for another 31 years, I believe. So for this year, in particular, anything special or different or more expanding that Shoulder to Shoulder is doing this month right for example to involve this particular intersection of lines up with the lunar?

00;41;00;02 – 00;41;25;05

Nina Fernando

Definitely. Yes. I’m glad you mentioned it. Last year and now this year, there’s this overlapping of religious holidays that hadn’t taken place in 30 plus years. And won’t again until I think it’s 2054. Yeah. And my colleague Cassandra Lawrence really gets excited about this. And it was from, again, a staff meeting, an idea that was shared that this messaging guide that we put together came out of.

00;41;25;05 – 00;41;47;16

Nina Fernando

We partnered with a few organizations to put together a messaging guide, encouraging people to reflect on the overlap and take the opportunity to learn what are these different holidays and how are our neighbors celebrating them here in the United States, but really around the world? What does it mean and what does it mean to folks? What are the foods involved?

00;41;47;16 – 00;42;12;21

Nina Fernando

What are the different ways in which we can celebrate with each other? And iftar is one of them. But then also, how are we talking about it in our different faith circles? How are we educating our different communities about each other? How are we highlighting that, Hey, our community isn’t the only one here. There are so many and there are so many that are having these meaningful moments overlapping all at once.

00;42;12;23 – 00;42;35;27

Nina Fernando

How can we live well together amidst that diversity, and how do we tell those stories? How do we share? So this messaging guide, we were encouraging people to do public messaging through Op-eds, through sharing on social media, through sermons, for example, for a lot of our communities are faith leaders and clergy. How can we encourage that kind of conversation in different settings?

00;42;35;27 – 00;42;47;20

Nina Fernando

And I think that that also can be brought in these two years into the iftars as well, naming the different traditions that are all celebrated at the same time in different ways.

00;42;47;22 – 00;43;13;20

Fionna Chong

That’s amazing that it’s 30 years before, 30 years after, roughly. This is a very special time indeed. I’m just thinking a little bit about the future. Where do you see Shoulder to Shoulder go in terms of continuing, expanding? I know you do training as well, right? Yeah, for organizations. Can you share a little bit about just sort of say the next few years, how is that vision going?

00;43;13;22 – 00;43;39;12

Nina Fernando

Sure. Shoulder to Shoulder, we were founded in 2010 and at the time there was a spike in anti-Muslim rhetoric in the national sphere for a variety of reasons. And we were formed when a group of faith leaders at the national level called an emergency interfaith summit. It was a press conference at the National Press Club, folks coming together saying an attack on one is an attack on all.

00;43;39;14 – 00;44;06;11

Nina Fernando

What can we do? That particular moment is the founding of our coalition and what has become a coalition into an organization, really, that is doing this work. And what we imagine is highlighting and uplifting what our many partners are doing in their different circles to address this issue, whether that relates to connecting people and relationship building opportunities or to educating themselves.

00;44;06;11 – 00;44;31;20

Nina Fernando

The many ways people are doing that through book clubs and trainings and workshops and what have you, and then mobilizing, speaking out when there is a policy that is problematic or needs to be uplifted and supported, different ways in which people are doing that around this issue. And in terms of our future, we’re hoping to work ourselves out of this job, if you will, of addressing anti-Muslim discrimination.

00;44;31;20 – 00;44;57;18

Nina Fernando

Unfortunately, when we look at some other isms, you know, anti-Jewish hate, anti-Black hate, anti-Indigenous hate, there’s so many, it’s not going anywhere. It’s just evolving, unfortunately. So that’s a reality. But at the same time, we’re making so much progress every step of the way. We’re learning more about how these issues intersect. They’re stronger partnerships, a stronger us, stronger we,

00;44;57;18 – 00;45;24;14

Nina Fernando

Working to build a society we want to see. And that’s where we’re heading. And so for Shoulder to Shoulder, our goal is to not have to prompt, but really to highlight what’s already happening. And we’ve seen such a significant shift in many ways that people are already doing this and they don’t need to be prompted. But there are still places where people do need that extra push and that’s why we’re here.

00;45;24;16 – 00;45;36;24

Nina Fernando

We’re really mission focused on addressing anti-Muslim discrimination. But there are many organizations that are working to counter all forms of hate, and we’re all in this together, essentially.

00;45;36;26 – 00;45;56;06

Fionna Chong

And there’s the underlying moral, as you speak earlier about what makes this a better world for all of us, not just us, one community, right? So for folks who actually want to start a dinner dialogue, who want to organize social justice movements, what advice would you give that could be helpful for them doing this work?

00;45;56;08 – 00;46;34;12

Nina Fernando

Sure. Well, for an iftar, if you’re not aware of something in your community, look up on your map. Where’s the local mosque? Start there. Some mosques are really small and it might be very easy to get in touch with the Imam or whoever is helping lead. Sometimes they have an interfaith committee and there’s a number of different folks you can contact to come visit to find out if they might already have some interfaith iftars scheduled or maybe they haven’t considered it and they invite you and there may be an opportunity to invite more from the community and kind of start there.

00;46;34;13 – 00;46;51;16

Nina Fernando

That’s a good way to begin. Another way to begin is say you have a Muslim friend or colleague that you could ask and say, I’ve learned a little bit more about this tradition in Ramadan and learned about Interfaith iftars and have you ever heard of that, and would love to do that with you if you’d be up for it.

00;46;51;16 – 00;47;21;16

Nina Fernando

And of course, don’t assume that how one decides to practice or not. But at the same time, from a posture of humility and curiosity, I think would be very much welcomed by friends. Those are some examples of how to get started as it relates to the work of faith and justice. Reflecting on what matters to you, what in your tradition or even just spirituality. Maybe you don’t feel like you’re connected to a spiritual tradition.

00;47;21;18 – 00;48;01;29

Nina Fernando

What of the stories of your elders move you into this space and how can that motivate you moving forward and being a mother myself, what kind of world do we want to build for our children, and what roles and examples are we setting for them? And so that can be a powerful motivator in and of itself. So thinking in that way and something I do want to share as it relates to our Ramadan campaign of mapping interfaith iftars. For us, at Shoulder to Shoulder, there’s no mapping without our partners, without friends in the field, without people who are doing this in their own communities.

00;48;02;01 – 00;48;31;02

Nina Fernando

I or we at Shoulder to Shoulder can’t take credit for that. And those stories and those communities coming together, those stories need to be told and shared. And it’s powerful to say that this is happening in different settings and different ways and setting that strong norm when we often hear so often messages that are divisive and inflaming rhetoric that paints an entire group of people a certain way.

00;48;31;04 – 00;48;42;00

Nina Fernando

This is an alternative, really powerful narrative of people coming together across difference to get to know each other and get to know their Muslim neighbors particularly.

00;48;42;03 – 00;49;06;28

Cindy Holmes

Yeah. This piece about getting to know your neighbors is such an important part of the campaign and of the work that you’re doing and I believe in some of the materials that you’ve created, you ask folks to think about this within their own faith traditions and to really reflect on what it means to be neighbors and to get to know your neighbors, and that this is an important starting place.

00;49;07;01 – 00;49;19;25

Cindy Holmes

This, as you’ve said, the gathering for a meal in and of itself will not end anti-Muslim racism. But this is an important starting place, this relationship building.

00;49;19;27 – 00;50;00;00

Nina Fernando

Totally. And I’m thinking about even like kids in schools, or in office spaces, or different public settings as it relates to accessibility and during Ramadan and fasting during Ramadan and creating space for prayer, perhaps where there isn’t. I think that those of us who do not come from some tradition can do our part in making sure that that is available for friends who need to have a space to go during lunch that doesn’t have to be surrounded by food, that maybe let’s not call a lunch meeting at work when friends are fasting, let’s instead meet another time.

00;50;00;04 – 00;50;10;06

Nina Fernando

You know, that kind of piece I think is really helpful and it helps people be aware of folks outside of themselves, essentially.

00;50;10;09 – 00;50;43;00

Cindy Holmes

Yeah, there’s so much important learning for myself, and I think this organization and the work that you’re doing and the interfaith iftars that are happening in communities are making such a difference and are transforming spaces and relationships. So I’m quite excited about where we might take this in our own lives also here. So I’m wondering if there’s anything else that you want to add or if there’s anything that we’ve missed that you want to bring in now as we come towards the end.

00;50;43;02 – 00;51;17;09

Nina Fernando

One piece that’s coming to mind is around reflecting on holidays and religious holy days as it relates also to national observances and international observances, as well as even just in schools and offices and what’s recognized and how oftentimes we don’t see how our different breaks, for example, in a school year overlap with some traditions but not others, and how some are marked and recognized and some are not.

00;51;17;11 – 00;51;43;09

Nina Fernando

I think Ramadan and this opportunity to come together for interfaith iftars is a chance to reflect on that in different settings. And as Ramadan falls at different times of the year, depending on the year. But how, for example, Eid is not often recognized in different school districts, but it’s such an important marking for so many Muslims, as important as other holidays or other traditions.

00;51;43;09 – 00;52;01;09

Nina Fernando

And so just naming that difference and recognizing that power imbalance there and doing our part, depending on where we’re coming from, to raise awareness and make change as it’s needed so that folks can be accommodated.

00;52;01;12 – 00;52;20;02

Cindy Holmes

It’s so important this piece of reflection, education, action for change. And it’s a great example of just the ways in which we can take the learning from the interfaith iftar beyond, into different spaces with other holidays as well.

00;52;20;04 – 00;52;24;21

Nina Fernando

Totally. Yeah, I’m sure I missed a lot of things, but.

00;52;24;26 – 00;52;57;21

Cindy Holmes

I don’t know. It’s been such a rich conversation Nina, I’m so grateful. I think we’d just like to thank you for your generosity of spirit and time to be a part of this interview and sharing in the podcast. And we’re excited to share what your organization is doing and we’ll put the resources up on our website that will be connected to the podcast so people will be able to find the guides that we’ve talked about and learn more about Ramadan more generally and the work of Shoulder to Shoulder.

00;52;57;23 – 00;52;59;24

Cindy Holmes

So thank you.

00;52;59;26 – 00;53;07;10

Nina Fernando

Thank you.

00;53;07;12 – 00;53;31;17

Cindy Holmes

That’s it for this week and I look forward to seeing you next time if you’re enjoying this, you can subscribe at Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts and follow us at our website aroundthetabledialogues.ca. Around the Table is produced by Cindy Holmes, Fionna Chong, and Leslie Williams.

On the unceded ancestral and traditional territories of the Lək̓ʷəŋən and W̱SÁNEĆ Peoples. Support for Around the Table comes from the University of Victoria, Vancouver Community College and the Sharing Farms Society.

Podcast editing is provided by New Leonard Media and music is by Oleksii Kaplunskyi.